Subject: Re: [drugwar] Why focus on the State ; was 50,000 children taking anti-depressants Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:54:37 -0400 To: From: Bob Armstrong I wanted to be fresh to answer you . On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:49:35 -0400, Preston Peet wrote: >=A0Bob Armstrong wrote >You are saying that "they" is someone= other than the >=A0Nanny Socialist State Warriors who invade our homes >=A0and other's countries in their fanatical drive to >=A0control other people's lives ? >=A0"They" are the State .< > >=A0To which I reply utterly without an iota of rancor, >=A0=A0=A0Why is it so important to you Bob that the State take all the= blame, and >=A0business interests take little to none? It's a structural thing . The State is by definition the monopoly on the use of Force . The political class is the only group which can TAKE resources ( and the decisions those resources empower ) from individuals by Force . Their commandments are imperatives : "ALL shall" or "ALL shall not" . ( With a swiss cheese of regulations to try= to make this corrupt philosophy work . ) The rule of the market ( "capitalism" ) is "Any" . You make ANY deal you want and engage in ANY behavior you want with ANY counter party you find so long as you do not impinge on the similar rights of others . I think it would be a bloody ( very possibly bloody ) shame if we went thru this experience of ever expanding prohibitions and the US "we're more moral that you" global imperialism and still have people failing to generalize from these specifics to the larger structural principles . ( John Clifton ( see http://cosy.com/boba2k/boba2k.htm ) the current NY LP chair just posted an interesting link http://fpri.org/pubs/orbis.4703.ryn.ideologyamericanempire.pdf which makes these points in thorough academic fashion . ) >=A0Are you saying that because someone is merely paying companies= for their >=A0pro- (or con- for that matter) prohibition efforts the= companies are >=A0blameless or removed from the responsible parties list? They are not merely paying , they are TAKING the money with= which they are paying . If they followed our dead Constitution they= could not TAKE that money to dole out to their friends and fellow warmongers in the NGOs they finance . If you are going to stop the money flow , stop the theft . > How do we sue these=A0companies for supressing results? Companies are sued for both valid and crazy things all the time= . And sometimes virtually destroyed . There are now class action lawyer Billionaires who have made their money in this game . > You make it sound so easy. Didn't mean to . Nothing is easy . > Wouldn't we=A0have to have the money to pay a lawyer to sue= them? Cigarette smokers don't . There are TV ads by contingency fee lawyers scraping for anybody ever exposed to asbestos whether sick or not . > Wouldn't we have to=A0prove we have some sort of personal= interest > or injury derived from said=A0supression of results for a judge > to even take the case in the first place? That's the principle . Without a harmed party , it's hard to= see why it would be a matter for a court . ( Of course a core= feature of victimless crimes is that the State itself violates this principle . ) >=A0How do we little folk go about suing these companies you note= only get >=A0involved when someone pays- and don't many companies, like say= G. E. get >=A0away with egregious crimes involving destructive and deadly= things like, oh, >=A0nuclear waste, due to having been working on government= contracts? (That's a >=A0rhetorical question btw.) It's true the Government will extend its Sovereign Immunity to= its contractors . >=A0=A0=A0I'm genuinely at a loss as to why it is so important to you= Bob that big >=A0business and big government be seperated when to me, just based= on my own >=A0observations of how the world works today and the types who= seem to be >=A0holding the reigns of power, they both seem to be= interchangeable parts of >=A0the same. Again , it's structural . Only the State initiates the use of= Force . >=A0=A0=A0The only way to end the WOSDU is to vote, (I know, call me an= idealist) >=A0and take part in the system. Agreed . The vote is our imperfect market control of the State monopoly of Force . That's why I've become such a bleeding= heart Libertarian activist . > A positive way, in my opinion, to solve some of >=A0the problems that lead people to drug abuse is to have a= government >=A0accountable to the people With you up to here . > and which uses our taxes to better our society >=A0(health care for all, education for all), reinvesting in= ourselves And here is where the failure to generalize - to see that the= same collectivist structure replacing Choice with Force - ALWAYS= fails . The Political Class , the same ones that make us criminals for all sorts of things , take the money and the power to make our individual decisions to "reinvest in ourselves" off the table between us and everyone we choose to do business with , and use it to pay for bureaucracies to make decisions about who= deserves and who does not . Consider you own situation . I know you could use more cash for your own health care . I could too . But we are not in a= favored group . Not only has our money and those of our relatives , business associates and friends been Taken for the privileged classes - with a great deal of it escalating health care costs with ballooning paperwork and frauds and frivolities and by the fact that you ( and me ) are competing with a subsidized market= . ( My brother ( http://cosy.com/art/jacka/index.htm ) has been institutionalized for the last 40 years . He gets MRIs , paid for with money taken from other families , if he stubs his toe . Literally . ) While it's a little early to point this out , nationalized health systems around the world are creaking towards failure and in many places being cut back . You can't give everybody a Cadillac . The attempt means that people like you and me don't have the money for a Chevy . I won't go into the failure of government education . There are some very eloquent recovered Socialists on the LP mail groups , eg , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lpny_manhattan/ who describe the mind numbing propagandizing they endured . I think the whole system is an anachronism . > instead=A0of propping up failing businesses and no-bid= contracting and >=A0defense/prison/pharmaceutical industries and government= insider/deregulation >=A0maniacs Correction . These groups don't want deregulation . Particularly= the major Pharms love the FDA creating multi $100 million barriers= to entry for new medicines . > who also happen to love the money paid hand over foot to the= cause >=A0of warring on druggies. Of course . > I want to pay taxes and reap the benefits of those=A0taxes,= helping I don't want to pay taxes ( to "do good" ) . I want to make my own decisions . > (instead of enriching some while killing others as is so >=A0often the case) others with those taxes as well- help them in > positive ways=A0as much as possible, giving people hope and love > (yeah, sappy and sticky=A0that sounds, but what the hell, > I'm feeling that way today). So when you see a century of collectivism always enriching only the political class and fomenting universal permanent war while failing to create prosperity , why don't you trust yourself and those you know to do good without the coercion of government guns and prisons ? > I certainly >=A0don't want my taxes going to companies which supress study= results that >=A0illustrate what bullshit the WOSDU really is, again, and again,= and >=A0again....but sue them? >=A0=A0=A0LOL. So shut off the tax spigot for any of this crap . >=A0=A0=A0I can hear the judge now- "And you're connection to this is= eactly what >=A0Mr. Peet?" If you can't show a damage to you , and can not find anyone who= can , then it must be way down on the battle plan priorities . >=A0=A0=A0So my question is- why is it so important to you to try and= seperate the >=A0two Bob? Structure . Attack the head . > Condeleeza Rice has an oil tanker named after her, Some oil transport magnate has the hots for her ? > Dick Cheney is >=A0tied (but lied about it yet again on national tv last weekend)= to >=A0Halliburton, Gore was tied to Occidental, and on and on and on= and on and >=A0on- these same people and seemingly so many more leave= government to > go work=A0in big business of one form or another, then go back= to > government when >=A0someone of their party affiliation is back in office- in and= out of >=A0government over and over again they go. Wandering into issues like the global energy industry ,= absolutely vital to our very lives , and of which the US is less than a= third , seems off topic . More generally , Gore and Cheney aside , I'm= not sure how you expect the cast of characters with the expertise= in particular industries to not be involved on both sides of the market/force boundary . Us libertarians are just out to level= the playing field by minimizing the force side of the equation . >=A0=A0=A0Peace, >=A0Preston Peace thru Freedom , --=A0 =A0Bob Armstrong -- http://CoSy.com -- 212-285-1864 Return our Right to Relax : =A0http://ny.lp.org/cgi-bin/petition.cgi?Against_the_Smoking_Ban Liberty : http://CoSy.com/Liberty.htm =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A02003/09/21 2:38:09 PM