Subject: Re: [drugwar] (OT really) Re: [drugwar] War is the life blood of the State . Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 15:01:43 -0400 To: From: Bob Armstrong On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 06:50:40 -0400, preston peet wrote: >=A0Hi all, >=A0=A0=A0While I'm responding to Bob's note in much of this, the last= two >=A0paragraphs are for everyone here. Please be sure to read them.= Thanks. > >=A0Bob Armstrong wrote >BUT , No company can start or prosecute a= war . =A0ONLY >=A0the STATE . > >=A0It is the State that TAKES ( taxes ) the trillions of dollars= to support >=A0its wars . It is the State that makes the market for the tools= of war >=A0which it solicits corporations small and large to supply . > >=A0To blame the businesses which satisfy the State's lust is like= blaming >=A0the dealers for their customer`s addictions .< > > >=A0As I noted before Bob, the two are interchangable nowadays,= government > and=A0big business, in so many ways. I dispute that totally . To the extent that is true , that is= the Fascist flavor of Socialism - like , e.g. Hitler's National Socialists= . > The people who are fronting the government=A0are not the power= brokers, > the corporate heads who can bilk millions of >=A0dollars and walk away unindicted are, as are those at say,= Halliburton, >=A0still paying the current Vice-President $1 million a year I= recently read >=A0(don't have that link at the tip of my fingers, sorry). > The state is a weak=A0little brother doing others' bidding > (for the most part not the citizens'=A0either so far as I can= tell) nowadays, > it seems to me, of the corporate=A0warpigs and greedheads= draining our > country of environmental resources while=A0claiming they have= some right to > deplete, waste and ruin the world for the >=A0rest of us, because "that's capitalist business." Wow , Preston , you conflate so many notions in a dense masala= they are hard to parse . To me the personalities attracted to politics are= those who see that government Power - the "right" to wield Force - trumps= money - the only power of the market place . The idea that the people who= scramble for that power are weak "Willy"s to those who control budgets at most a= twentieth of the 1.8 trillion dollar budget they control , makes no sense to= me . Capitalism's business is to provide goods and services someone= will buy . That includes the cloths on your back , the food you eat , the= structure you live in , the energy you use to heat or cool or travel ,= the communications we are using right now . The control on the= corporate greedheads is that they cannot charge more than some other= greedhead who provides a better deal . If they produce what economists call "externalities" , eg , pollution , they can be and are sued . > Meanwhile, the revolving >=A0door continues to be used by corporate elites like Condoleeza= Rice, GW Bush, >=A0Cheney, etc, etc, who go into government, makes laws and= regulations that >=A0benefit their compatriots in big business, then leave= government to go back >=A0to cushy corporate jobs, As opposed to AF 1 .. n , etc , and fleets of armored limos and= Suburbans . > until next time they're needed in the government to >=A0pass some other rule or law that benefits their big business= compatriots. >=A0=A0=A0My own opinion anyway. The revolving door is inevitable because the expertise and= talents required exist in those who spend their lives in the various businesses= . >=A0>Your resources and your >=A0fate have been ceded to bureaucrats over whom you have NO= direct leverage >=A0..< > >=A0Hopefully the vote still works and actually means something in= this >=A0democractic country, meaning I do have direct leverage if it= does, while >=A0even owning one share, which I don't and don't want to, It would be wise to own some sort of assets , foolish to think= SS will supply you a comfortable old age . > leaves me unable to=A0affect any change whatsoever in the way= many > ( clip \/ ) corporations do business. Beyond your direct vote with every dollar you spend , boycotts= and their attendant publicity have proven effective if people can be= convinced of the morality of your position . > (by no means all- High Times=A0itself is part of a corporation, > TransHigh Corp.) Glad to see this recognition that corporations are us . >=A0How well have those irritating gadflies you mention done in= stopping the >=A0WorldCom/Enron-like shadinesses? My bigger question is why the analysts at the SEC and , eg ,= Bloomberg or S&P failed to see the corruption . >=A0I wrote >Again, there are many, many corporations that are= profiting off the >=A0Drug=A0War, as evidenced by the link I supplied above.< > >=A0Bob responded >And again , what is your point ? =A0IT IS THE= STATE THAT MAKES >=A0THE RULES !=A0It is the STATE that is the Customer .< > >=A0What do you mean, what's my point? My point is again stated= above, and how >=A0you can seperate our government (the two main parties for sure,= the rest I'm >=A0not entirely sure about) from corporations in your mind,= interchangable and >=A0inseperable to my mind, is a mystery to me. Well , to my mind there is a clear separation . One side taxes ,= the other markets . One side makes and enforces the rules , the other side= must supplicate for force to be used in their behalf . The= corporations win some an anti-corporate groups like the nicotine-nannies win some . > I personally feel that nowadays >=A0much of what the federal government does and rules is entirely= to satisfy >=A0various corporations' whims, not the other way around. Hence= all the people >=A0making a living lobbying the government and paying for one perk= or another >=A0for this or that politician who goes back to DC and proceeds to= do exactly >=A0as the corporations desire. >=A0Seems more than obvious to me. > >=A0>What you are talking about is a CORRUPT STATE .< > >=A0And I agree that what I'm talking about, and currently living= in, is a >=A0Corrupt, corporate state. So we are agreed . And the libertarian answer is that the only= hope is to vote the state back into its constitutionally minimal box . >=A0>What the fuck does it mean that some individual supplied any= thing free >=A0to a population ? =A0People have to feed and clothe and care for >=A0themselves . < >=A0For starters, why the cursing in my direction? Sorry about that . I actually didn't think of it being directed= in any particular direction at the time ; just an expression of wonder= . >=A0For seconds, Saddam was the President of his country, and in= that sense I >=A0meant he was "giving" the people what was rightfully theirs, So you are saying the President Dictator is giving back to= "his" people what he took from them . > (as I expect >=A0our government to do with the taxes I pay instead of telling me= it's cool to >=A0award multi-billion dollar contracts paid for with those taxes= to this or >=A0that corporation to wage war on this, war on that, war on the= other while >=A0telling me I'm a socialist to want unviversal health care- how= offensive to >=A0me that is I can only begin to tell you) Both are socialistic and authoritarian . Which is why the= Libertarian Party saying a pox on both your excuses for controlling our lives came= into existence . > while many of our corporations have >=A0zero desire to give me anything at all but shoddy products that= will fall >=A0apart in a year or two so I have to spend yet more money on= whatever they >=A0produce, if they produce anything at all for that matter. Why are you buying from companies who make crappy products ?= There are plenty out there who make astoundingly good products . It is= only with a monopoly - like universal health care would be - that you can= stop people from shopping for a better deal . >=A0=A0=A0This is my main argument with the Libertarian position- the= idea that >=A0people must feed and clothe and care for themselves or they can= crawl off >=A0and die- it's not our responsibility to be our brothers/sisters= keepers, This is a perception which I think was somewhat reinforced by= Ayn Rand who was reacting so strongly to the horrors of Communism she had= endured in her youth . The libertarian point is that the use of Force= in the name of Charity is a fraud . Someone with no compassion is a= sociopath . The idea that the collective can be more compassionate than= individuals on average does not compute . The Taking of individual's= resources for redistribution by the bureaucracy inevitably blunts and dumbs= down the the use of those funds . It mainly provides jobs for government= workers . >=A0while supporting the right of corporations to conduct their= businesses as >=A0greedily as they'd like. Which , as I have pointed out , they cannot do because they will= lose market to lower priced competitors . > I fully support the idea of personal >=A0responsibility, but I am dead set against the idea that helping= out our >=A0fellow citizens regardless of their excuse for having a need is= oh so bad >=A0socialism. The question , again as always , is an issue of State forced= monopoly charity versus a market in charities so you can put your= resources where you feel they will be most effective . >=A0>I've come to see the whole f'n thing as a criminal >=A0enterprise run by the globe's most cosmic con-artists . < > >=A0In this I agree, though I'm not sure we're looking at the exact= same >=A0picture- I'm looking at the folk at people and places like,= say, Enron and >=A0Ken Lay, Halliburton and Cheney, and thinking to myself, "what= else do I >=A0call this but a white collar mafia?" I won't disagree , but at least they can't invade your home in= ninja jammies with machine guns and haul you off for a mandatory minimum for= growing some plants . They basically are restricted to committing fraud . >=A0=A0=A0Anyway, this discussion about corporations is interesting and= we could >=A0argue and debate about it until the cows come home, but Please,= let's try to >=A0bring it back around to the War on Some Drugs and Users, as= that is actually >=A0what this list is all about. Ah , by chance , I just did ! > As someone who wants the war to end, despite my >=A0own hesitations about some Libertarian positions, I need all= the allies I >=A0can get to end this stinkin' war, and would rather find our= similarities >=A0rather than the issues we disagree on, as that way I think we= can more >=A0easily plant better, stronger foundations upon which to build a= better world >=A0than we can by picking out the contrary issues and focusing on= them. Agreed heartily . We LPers just want to point out that this= criminalization of large classes of peaceful fellow citizens is just an exemplar= of the pervasive abusive power of the political class . >=A0=A0=A0Again, for the new subscribers, as moderator I welcome any= and all to >=A0post here what you will, so long as you can tie it into the= WOSDU for the >=A0rest of us, or put a big OT in the subject heading so those who= don't want >=A0to see and read anything but Drug War related news can know to= skip over it. >=A0=A0=A0Thanks all. >=A0Peace, >=A0Preston `Nuf said . Peace thru Freedom , Bob A Liberty : http://cosy.com/Liberty.htm 7/13/2003 1:05:58 PM