Subject: RE: [OT] Andria joins the War is the life blood of the State-discussion Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:23:14 -0400 To: From: Bob Armstrong On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:13:28 +0100, Efthimiou-Mordaunt,A wrote: >=A0Andria joins the debate - Beware!!! > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Andria said: my prob. with the freemarket idea is simple - > human beings are fundamentally flawed (yeh, try and talk me out= of that one, i dare ya!!!) AbsoF'nlutely ! That is exactly why the power in the hands of= any one individual or gang must be strongly limited . What makes you thing that= working for the government - where force is the tool - makes the individuals= superior to those of us who earn our living in the market of voluntary choices ? An ant or bee ethologist ( I wish I had the reference ) once= commented about Marxism : " Great theory . Wrong species " . > and therefore i fear that anything that encourages individual= greed will mean > more people starve, are homeless, end up shooting dope and= dying young etc I don't follow the implication here at all . How does individual= greed where the only way you can earn a living is by offering something some= one else desires enough to engage in a cash flow cause the consequences= you cite ? You certainly describe the experience of totally collectivized= countries . I was trying to think what it was that struck me as so= qualitatively worse about the poverty I saw in Leningrad in `92 than anywhere else= I've been . It was not only that the Old was decrepit , so were the New= unfinished idle projects . Just a very very few gilded icons like the Hermitage= were being maintained . ( And the Metro - got to say the metro was like a= time warped 1950's museum / bomb shelter ) The areas surrounding the Metro= entrances were full of aged babushka with one or two bottles of vodka or= grain alcohol to try to sell for a few rubble ( at the time 125 to the $1 ) to= get on another day . It was not uncommon to see people literally fall= over drunk and pass out in mud puddles with no one more than glance in= their direction because they were busy trying to peddle some vacuum tubes for a= bit of cash . Blade Runner is the closest visual analogy I can give . >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Indeed, I must b honest and say a few other things about= what i > perceive to be either > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0a) libertarian ideas, or b) free market ones. > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A01) It does seem to me that Libertarians are somewhat naive:= when I first discovered Libertarianism at a DPF conference= several years ago, i thought 'mmh, sounds alright,' then I was= taught by a very smart galfriend in Manhattan, how closely= libertarianism is to right wing economic politics, Searched Google for DPF . I assume you mean the Drug Policy= Alliance rather than the other hits that come up . I would quibble with the "right-wing" attribution ( and more so= with the labeling of John Stossel as "archconservative" in another posted= quote - John is most definitely libertarian ) . But it is true that= left-wingers are all about placing the control of everybody's economic decisions in= the hands of the Political Class . > (and hey kick my butt if/when U meet me,) but i ain't noticed= the greatest > results from such economics in the U.S. So point out a centrally controlled economy which does better .= They are virtually extinct . > All that insurance &=A0taxation, which as Preston has already= pointed out so well, not really covering for peoples basic= healthcare/education needs is dreadful, AND it's spreading to= the U.K (I'm thinking of moving to Holland; i could die over= here soon and nobody would flipping know..) You're in Britain ? It seems you are indicting the very system= you are advocating . You need that greed factor controlled by the fact that the only way they can get your dollar is by satisfying your= need better than any of your alternatives . When the money has already been= taken from you and the counterparties you choose to do business with , why= should they give a damn . They've already scalped you . I thought British= healthcare was supposed to be socialist paradise . >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A02) Free markets: in fact, let me just give u an anecdote= from life that happened this week - i was putting up a future= monetary benefactor of cannabis distribution (for want of a= better way to put it..) I suddenly declare - childish as i can= sometimes be - "I know, I'll emulate U and b one of the= companies that distributes heroin when it becomes legal!!" My= companion IMMEDIATELY leaps on that one and says, "No U can't,= we're already planning that." Now whether his co. is or isn't is= irrelevant; what's interesting to me about that conversation is= his immediate theoretical coveting of my naive idea, as if we= were just playing in Kindergarten and I had just swiped his= favourite toy > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0WE CALL THIS HUMAN NATURE; =A0Greedy, opportunistic, selfish,= self-centred and frankly I'm getting quite quite fed up of= noting the level of it amongst us, as drug policy reformers...= when it comes to the entrepreneurial bandwagon-jumping long= before ANY country has even thought (openly, at any rate) about= legally regulating coke, smack or pot. So what makes the political class and government workers immune= from Human Nature . Is it because they say they are ? Are they , as the= pigs in Animal Farm , More Equal ? >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Like Preston, i don't particularly have a problem with= people making money either, but i do have a problem with that= level of greed AND it does seem to be driven by= economic-insecurity, which is made worse by having little or no= economic regulation, i.e. an infrastructure, which can regulate= and make a few rules, which STOPS the less go-getting amongst= is, from starving to death on the streets. Few , simple rules - that's what the Bill of Rights was all= about . "less go-getting" I don't particularly care about . "go-getting"= but still unable are dependent on the charity of others . The thing is ,= it is a patent fraud , proven by experience , that the use of Force in the name= of Charity solves the problem . What it does is create Government jobs . >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0While I empathisize deeply with your lack of belief in GW,= not ALL governments have as many immature and gangsterish= criminals in them as the current U.S govt. does. God, we really= need to watch Blaire and Blunkett > >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0President Lula of Brazil is coming to my school today, It was either Brazil or Argentina I saw recently may be putting= up a bit of opposition to the US WOsD expansion into their country . >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0and I had the HUGE honour of hearing/seeing Mandela last= Friday morning in Camden Town (a mile away from the hse i was= born in.) He was unveiling a plaque in memory of Ruth First= (blown apart by apartheid letter bomb in '82, and her husband,= Joe Slovo (once minister in the first ANC government of Sth= Africa) who also died but 13 yrs later of Liver cancer. They= were parents to Robyn Slovo, a very close friend who i met in= rehab eons ago, so i had this opportunity (for the 3rd time) to= touch the hem of one of the only world leaders, who gives me any= hope whatsoever. He is one of the greats . Getting old tho . I got up to Harlem (= in a massive crowd ) to see him around 1990 . First time I ever saw a black= Bart Simpson t-shirt . >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0So now I'm hoping I can get into hear Lula too, and that= would mean that my birthday - (yesterday) - gifts are= complete!! --=A0 =A0Bob Armstrong -- http://CoSy.com -- 212-285-1864 Liberty : http://cosy.com/Liberty.htm =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A02003/07/14 11:53:24 AM