Subject: Re: [lpny_manhattan] The moral case for supporting Israel Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 22:35:04 -0400 To: From: Bob Armstrong As preface , as Theron said : On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 19:57:58 -0000, rhymetofree6 wrote: >=A0I think I'd have to class this as a tribal war whose history I= don't >=A0know. >... >=A0I do find it encouraging that people around here generally= agree that >=A0we ought not to be meddling with money and military supplies. And it is only by our subsidy of $1000 per Israeli per year that= this carnage has been able to go on and on . On Wed, =A01 Oct 2003 15:38:00 -0700, James Lesczynski wrote: >=A0Bob Armstrong wrote: >=A0>>=A0>=A0Everybody except the zionists keep referring to Arafat as= the elected >=A0>>=A0>=A0leader . And it is clear he has great popular support . >=A0>> >=A0>>=A0Sure, because Arafat imprisons, tortures and kills his own= people who have opposed him. >=A0> >=A0>=A0That accounts for his obvious popularity ? > >=A0That accounts for the fact that anybody who wants to live to= see the sunset knows better than to speak out publicly against= him. Castro also enjoys enormous popularity, judging by the= state-mandated spontaneous rallies of support. This is the first time I have ever heard such an assertion . It seems so counter to his virtual imprisonment for the last= several years and his lack of control over all sorts of activities in= that batter land . Please show me some evidence . >=A0>=A0The Israel government , of course , imprisons thousands of= non-Jewish Palestinians , > >=A0The word you're looking for is terrorists. Thousands ? >=A0>=A0And don't tell me a "Jewish State" is not intended to be a= theocracy . > >=A0To be Jew, you just have to have a Jewish mother. You don't= have to believe anything theologically. Ask any rabbi. Or any= nazi. Oh , so zionism is a form of racism . >=A0>>=A0Where can I get the Palestinian slave video? Who owns these= slaves, the state of Israel or individual Jewish settlers? This= is news to me. >=A0> >=A0>=A0Watch the news . See the bulldozers role . See the Walls rise= . See the >=A0>=A0olive groves burn . See the Palestinians present their ID= cards like Bantus , >=A0>=A0what was it , a decade ago , to visit their relative they= used to walk to >=A0>=A0casually . > >=A0Okay, but what about the slaves? Or do you have a different= definition of enslavement than the customary one? I was using it in the sense of lack of freedom . I'm open to a more accurate word . It's the reality of the conditions= rather than the label that matters . >=A0>>=A0I was talking about the current situation in South Africa. >=A0> >=A0>=A0Is this the same South Africa the CIA describes as : >=A0> >=A0>South Africa is a middle-income, emerging market with an= abundant supply of natural resources; well-developed financial,= legal, communications, energy, and transport sectors; a stock= exchange that ranks among the 10 largest in the world; and a= modern infrastructure supporting an efficient distribution of= goods to major urban centers throughout the region. However,= growth has not been strong enough to lower South Africa's high= unemployment rate; and daunting economic problems remain from= the apartheid era, especially poverty and lack of economic= empowerment among the disadvantaged groups. High crime and= HIV/AIDS infection rates also deter investment. South African= economic policy is fiscally conservative, but pragmatic,= focusing on targeting inflation and liberalizing trade as means= to increase job growth and household income. > >=A0Bob, that quote from the CIA Factbook backs up _everything_ I= said - high unemployment, high crime and disease (HIV/AIDS= infection rates). I included the whole entry to be fair . But , it does not= describe a basket case , tho that would be irrelevant . >=A0>=A0In any case , your comment implies that you feel Apartheid= was moral as >=A0>=A0well as Zionism . > >=A0No, it implies only that the South Africans have done a= terrible job of governing themselves post-Apartheid. The= Palestinian Authority isn't getting off to a much better start.= For that matter, most of the governments in the Middle East are= horrible. I don't much care for any government, but Israel's= seems to be the least worst of the lot. "least worst" . Well at least we're agreed on the decile . >=A0>>=A0If that's the case, the Palestinians have Arafat and= themselves to blame. >=A0> >=A0>=A0From his blasted out hovel , he's responsible for the= Gunships and >=A0>=A0Bulldozers and no place that can be called their own ? > >=A0Absolutely. They almost had a place to call their own three= years ago, remember - a contiguous Palestinian state - except= that Arafat rejected the deal. So that justifies every provocative thing Sharon has done since= ? Accelerating the taking of land , growth of settlements and Berlin walls ? >=A0>=A0I think the most patently insane notion of zionists is that= if only Arafat >=A0>=A0were disappeared , the rest of population would accept their= fate . > >=A0No, they've been so deceived by decades of anti-Jewish= propaganda that there will almost certainly never be a= resolution to the Palestinian problem. But Arafat is a very big= part of the problem. I feel deluged by decades of anti-Palestinian propaganda . I continue to see no difference between zionism and other= assertions of superior rights by various "tribal" groups . The Wall chopping the West Bank into pieces is one hell of a lot bigger and more permanent problem than Arafat . --=A0 =A0Bob Armstrong -- http://CoSy.com -- 212-285-1864 Return our Right to Relax : =A0http://ny.lp.org/cgi-bin/petition.cgi?Against_the_Smoking_Ban Liberty : http://CoSy.com/Liberty.htm =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A02003/10/01 9:32:50 PM