Subject: Re: [LPNY DISCUSS] Liberty: -- Talking Points -- Hamburger or steak? Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:35:17 -0500 To: From: Bob Armstrong On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:47:00 -0500, Marc Brands Liberty wrote: >=A0A recent front-page story in the New York Times detailed the= European >=A0cutbacks. According to the article, Britain, France, and= Germany are >=A0all being forced to limit access to care. Rationing, already >=A0extensive, is increasing. > >=A0The Europeans have run into a very simple economic rule. If= something >=A0is perceived as free, people will consume more of it than they= would >=A0if they had to pay for it. > >=A0-- Michael Tanner, Health Care News Marc , do you have a more complete link to this ? I've been wanting to accumulate an effective response to the= following debate on http://drugwar.com : On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 20:25:05 -0400, Preston Peet wrote: > [ I ] wrote : >=A0>Every where I have ever heard of with socialized medicine ,= ques and high >=A0costs are endemic.< > >=A0Again, and only speaking for myself: > >=A01- In Norway, where I was not a citizen but did have legal= working papers, I >=A0was hospitalized for 4 days after having serious stomache and= abdominal pain >=A0(they couldn't figure out what was wrong, even with a lot of= bleeding going >=A0on, but they tried, and didn't charge me). I saw a doctor many= times for a >=A0variety of reasons, and wasn't ever charged, but was given= prescriptions, >=A0and never saw a line, not once- at least not more than a couple= people long >=A0in a nice, cozy waiting room. > >=A02- In Paris, I had a serious infection in my right hand due to= a motorcycle >=A0accident I'd had during a couple weeks visit back in Florida= (taking a short >=A0vacation from living in Paris, making myself Visa-legal again)= and on >=A0Christmas Eve, I showed up at the oldest hospital in Paris,= across the plaza >=A0from Notre Dam cathedral, (can't think of the name right now)= and was signed >=A0in within a couple of hours. The "line" was only as long as it= took to >=A0translate my painfully stressed English to French and for a= doctor to >=A0examine my hand and tell me I had to be operated on the very= next morning or >=A0I was loosing my hand. Christmas morning I was operated on and= my hand was >=A0saved. I wasn't charged and there were no lines. > >=A03- In England I was seen by more than one doctor, hospitalized= once for an >=A0overdose, (you know, the whole charcoal, stomach pump thing,= the works- and >=A0they gave me 10 quid the next morning for bus fare- which I= used to get >=A0straight, and they knew that's what I was going to do I= suspect) and >=A0received prescriptions for free, all without a single line. > >=A04- I heard complaints from a very limited number of bored and= faintly silly >=A0young people in Holland about how the government sucked and the= system >=A0sucked...but the one guy who's complaining I'm thinking of= particularly was >=A0collecting a dole, and was aghast that I was even surprised= that he got free >=A0housing and a check every month. "Housing and electricity are= human rights," >=A0he and the others sitting with us during that discussion told= me. He figured >=A0the goverment had the duty to help him and other citizens out= as the >=A0government works for the people and spends the people's taxes-= for the >=A0people. (Imagine that.) > >=A0Richard Lake wrote >>=A0Do you really believe that the health= insurance >=A0industry gives a shit about anything but profit?<< > >=A0Bob Armstrong answered >No more or less than any other industry= or >=A0government bureaucracy . >=A0Nor does it matter . In a market , the ones that offer the best= product >=A0will get the most business and accordingly profit.< > >=A0What exactly does this have to do with our society and system= here in the US >=A0Bob? We certainly don't get the "best product" when it comes to= health >=A0insurance. Nor do we get "the best" when it comes to= medications- take the >=A0current brouhaha over buying Canadian drugs because ours are= priced so >=A0insanely high. > >=A0>Are you saying people who go >=A0into medicine and related industries are evil ? < > >=A0Take the US medical insurance industry- yes, I do believe that= most are in >=A0it for profit, not to help people. Evil? I don't know about= that. >=A0Unconcerned about people's suffering? Yes, I do believe that. >=A0=A0=A0The US pharmaceutical corporations? Yes, I do believe they= care not one >=A0whit for people's health or happiness- they care about profits= only, and we >=A0most certainly do not have a "free market" or much choice at= all when it >=A0comes to either of these examples. >=A0=A0=A0Considering the amount of our taxes that go to prop up= industry after >=A0industry (Amtrak, airlines, Pentagon, ONDCP for a few examples)= and how >=A0little go to genuine health care and other social services, I= honestly >=A0believe that if we shifted our priorities and began investing= in ourselves, >=A0we wouldn't have any more "clogging up" of the system than we= do today- >=A0probably a ton less to be quite frank about it. >=A0=A0=A0But then I'm an idealist who wants a better world with people= who >=A0actually care for one another instead of only themselves and= their profit >=A0margins. > >=A0>A lot of aspects of maintenance etc , and certainly in things= like water >=A0systems , expertise is more efficiently found by putting the= tasks out for >=A0bids to horizontally integrated specialists rather than trying= to maintain a >=A0department in the vertically integrated geographic= monopolies.< > >=A0Hmmm- so does Enron's way of doing business in California/US= count as >=A0expertise? How about WorldCom? Or the myriad other corporations= which went >=A0to great lengths to offer crap service while padding the books= and ripping >=A0off thousands upon thousands of customers, investors and= taxpayers? Or does >=A0this relate to the bidding by all those corporations for= rebuilding Iraq >=A0contracts...oh, hold on, little to no bidding there, was= there? >=A0=A0=A0Anyway, I myself had no trouble with lines in any of the= aforementioned >=A0countries which have much more caring and attentive social= programs than we >=A0in the US have- as a matter of fact, come to think of it, the= lines I go >=A0through here as a matter of course are way worse than any I= ever experienced >=A0in any of these places. >=A0Peace, >=A0Preston --=A0 =A0Bob Armstrong -- http://CoSy.com -- 212-285-1864 Restore our Right to Relax : =A0http://ny.lp.org/cgi-bin/petition.cgi?Against_the_Smoking_Ban =A0Vote against your incumbent . =A0And vote For open primaries . My commentary in the voters guide= : http://nyccfb.info/debates_vg/voter_guides/general_2003/ballot_pr= oposal/statements_3_pro.htm#armstrong Computing Environment : =A0http://CoSy/CoSy/ A WTC vision : http://CoSy.com/CoSy/ConicAllConnect/ Liberty : http://CoSy.com/Liberty.htm =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A02003/10/28 10:47:17 PM