Subject: Re: [lpny_manhattan] Re: Fwd: Today is the International Day to Eliminate Violence Against Women Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 15:17:16 -0500 To: From: Bob Armstrong My only point is that I don't think there is anything unique or= extraordinarily horrendous about painful practices various cultures apply to= girls as opposed to boys . In all these cases there are enormous coercions by the= elders and even only slightly older classes of initiates who take pride in= the "adult" status they have obtained . The basic question is like Star= Fleet's Prime Directive : the morality of outsiders to interfere with the= evolution of a culture when that culture does things to their children which= are troublesome to say the least . ( There was a bit of this in the excuses for= going after the Koresh cult . ) Among practices which appear to me equally if not more= potentially harmful are head binding , neck stretching and foot binding . Generally , I find the evolution of human sexual dimorphism= contains many mysteries . Why have women evolved to be so much smaller and= weaker than men ? I have a strong bias toward women my height because I= would desire taller children . However women my height generally want even taller= men . A particular conundrum is that , to appear taller ( and slimmer= because it evades the 3%2 power law which generally governs bulk to height ) ,= women , even tall women , love high heels . To the extent this works , it causes= men to be attracted to smaller women than they would be otherwise -= increasing the propensity of women to be smaller than their mates . On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 12:04:30 -0500, Pamela Wilcox wrote: >=A0=A0>Yes, the =A0ones that are willing to risk ostracism, being= considered sexually undesirable, and, yes, sometimes physical= punishment at the hands of the leaders of her community, male= and female. =A0And I don't know for sure, but many might approve= of women going thru this ritual, WITH INFORMED CHOICE. > >=A0=A0>=A0As to the "Right to relax" wouldn't all women (and men, and >=A0=A0>=A0children),sleep better at night knowing with reasonable= security >=A0=A0>=A0that they weren't going to be mutilated the next day? > >=A0=A0These things are done in ceremonies and rites of passage so= there >=A0=A0is at most a few nights in a kid's life filled with such fears= . >=A0=A0And in many cases the fear may be as much about failing some >=A0=A0social norm of the ceremony . > >=A0=A0>I don't know about that. =A0This practice, in certain places,= =A0was brought to the attention of the outside world by the= observation of outsiders that at a certain time of the year,= many pubescent girls would hide. =A0On further questioning, it was= found that they did this in hopes of avoiding the ceremony. > >=A0=A0I would think a first pregnancy would be far more frightening= . > >=A0=A0>Again, these days most women have some kind of choice. =A0And= even those who don't see the example of other women, and know= that the pain is not ongoing in most cases,and most women= survive. (If there were no ongoing discomfort, the idea of= hiding would not occur to so many girls as to bring it to the= attention of the outside world). > >=A0=A0>=A0And as for those who choose to have their bodies pierced, >=A0=A0isn't "choice"the operative word??? > >=A0=A0I feel screwed that my foreskin was chopped long before I had >=A0=A0a choice . I certainly would never do such barbaric things to >=A0=A0any kids I had . But I'll limit my "aggression" toward any= culture >=A0=A0who has held such practices since time immemorial to >=A0=A0proselytizing . > >=A0=A0>Agreed. =A0But do you feel any discomfort now? =A0And, other= questions (general health,sperm count,etc.) put aside, has it= impaired your ability to have/enjoy sex, or to father children,= if that has been/is presently your choice? =A0Most men who= continue to resent being circumcised,after it already has been= done, into their adult years, do so because of their lack of= choice, and the fact that they may be smaller than more "intact"= males. > >=A0=A0Incidentally , the idea that male circumcision isn't all that >=A0=A0painful for adults is kind of contradicted by the story in >=A0=A0Genesis 34 =A0where a gentile kid and a Jewish girl have the= hots >=A0=A0for each other and the Jews say the whole gentile town has to >=A0=A0get circumcised if they are going to marry . Then "Three days >=A0=A0=A0later, while all of them were still in pain, two of Jacob's >=A0=A0=A0sons ... took their swords and attacked the unsuspecting >=A0=A0=A0city, killing every male." > >=A0=A0>I'm quite familiar with the story. Male circumcision, at that= time in history was painful, due to the lack of pain-killing= medicines available today. =A0And in this case it wasn't a= "ceremony"; the girl's brothers disapproved of the marriage= anyway, because they believed that their sister had been= "treated like a whore", and thought nothing of killing the man= involved, and his relatives. =A0The insistence on circumcision was= a ruse, not a "time honored ceremony". > >=A0=A0A final note concerning the variety of female "mutilation" in >=A0=A0which the vagina is essentially sealed until marriage : I >=A0=A0remember some years ago , such "re-virginations" became a fad >=A0=A0plastic surgery procedure in Japan . > >=A0=A0>"fad" implies choice > >=A0=A0People do all sorts of nutty painful things for sexually >=A0=A0related reasons . > >=A0=A0>again, by choice. --=A0 =A0Bob Armstrong -- http://CoSy.com -- 212-285-1864 Computing Environment : =A0http://CoSy.com/CoSy/ A WTC vision : http://CoSy.com/CoSy/ConicAllConnect/ Liberty : http://CoSy.com/Liberty.htm Restore our Right to Relax : =A0http://ny.lp.org/cgi-bin/petition.cgi?Against_the_Smoking_Ban =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A02003/11/27 2:29:43 PM